To the reader:
Some time ago, Daniel Winters initiated correspondence
with Elder Wm. H. Grotheer which ended inconclusively, entirely due to Winters’ lack of comprehension of what Elder Grotheer was
trying to convey to him. Winters
published the correspondence on his website.
Following is a hyperlink to the exchanges:
http://storm.prohosting.com/dannywin/grotheer.html
In November of last year Winters
accosted webmaster@adventistlaymen.com
about this adventistlaymen.com website, which had recently been published. Following is the correspondence which ensued:
---- Original Message ---‑
> From: "Daniel Winters" <tenkoku@hotmail.com>
> To: <webmaster@adventistlaymen.com>
>Sent: Sunday, Nov 30, 2003 1:11 pm
>Subject: Re: regarding William Grotheer and the Spirit
of Prophecy
>Hello,
>In the recent WWN
(that i have asked many tίmes to be taken off the mailing list), your website's
URL was >listed, so I just went and looked at it. I don't know why you have
taken it upon yourself to promote Elder >Grotheer's theories, but i can tell you for a certainty, that he does NOT believe in the
Spirit of Prophecy - >especially when it directly contradicts some of his
pet ideas like the times of the Gentiles being fulfilled in 1967 >etc.
>
>Elder Grotheer and i had correspondence, and he made his feelings towards the SOP
clear. I have put the >correspondence up on the Internet,
and you can view it here: http://storm.prohosting.com/dannywin/grotheer.html
>
>This is just for your information. I too believe the Elder Grotheer has done a lot of good, but he is definitley >leading souls astray at the
current time.
>
>May God watch over all hίs
sheep,
>Daniel Winters
>www.earlysda.com
>PS:
Your web site
looks nice
From: <webmaster@adventistlaymen.com> Sent:
Tue Dec 2, 2003 9:02 am
Το: <Daniel Winters
<tenkoku1@hotmail.com> Priority: Normal
Subject: regarding William Grotheer and the Spirit of Prophecy
Dear Bro. Winters:
Thank you for
your e-mail message. The division of responsibilities
for the website assigns doctrinal matters to Elder Grotheer. However,
your message raises questions about the website itself, and the nature of your
doctrinal statements demand a reply from me. My reply will be fairly detailed, so Ι probably cannot write it until the
latter part of this week at the earliest. However, be assured that I will reply in detail.
Again,
thanking for your Interest,
and the
compliment on the appearance of the website, Yours very sincerely,
Webmaster
From:<webmaster@adventistlaymen.com Sent: Dec 13,
2003 10:33 pm
T0: Daniel Winters
<tenkoku1@hotmail.com> Priority:
Normal
Subject:
regarding William Grotheer and the
Spirit of Prophecy
Dear Daniel Winters:
I perused your e-mail message briefly before writing my last reply hurriedly. I
did not notice the hyperlink to the website where you have published the exchange
of correspondence with Elder Grotheer. I have since read the letters, and arrived
at the conclusion that I would accomplish nothing by sending you a
"detailed" reply on the subject of Luke 21:24. You take facts that are
stated as clearly as could be, and twist them into meanings quite different from those of
the writer. It is impossible to dialogue rationally in that fashion. Small
wonder then, that Elder Grotheer did not respond to your last letter. He has
already dealt with your objections with a degree of scholarship and logic that Ι cannot match.
The unfolding fulfillment of prophecy is understood by making logical deductions from the
facts of history and current events. This was the case in establishing 457 B.C. as the
starting date of
Daniel's prophecy of the 2300 days, as it was the case in establishing 538 A.D.
as the starting date of the 1260 years of papal supremacy. The beginning and
ending of each of these periods, and the events in between, were all
established as fulfillment of the prophecies by the incontrovertible
evidence of history. Elder Grotheer's exegesis of Luke 21:24 is no more "theory" than
the established exegeses of these two great prophecies. If you cannot "see"
the Truth presented in his letters and the issues of Watchman, What of the Night,? one can only hope that conviction will be
brought to your mind by the Holy Spirit through some other means.
What amazes me is that you presume to challenge a man highly regarded
for his scholarship, even by those who do not agree with his biblical exegesis)
You have demonstrated an abysmal ignorance of the Bible, and also the very
"SOP" that you boast of using as your guide. For example, you go all the
way to Rev. 19 in attempting to disprove that the High Priest was garbed in
linen from head to toe on the Day of Atonement. Why not exercise simple common sense
and read the chapter of
the Bible that settles the issue? I refer to the opening verses of Lev. 16.
Then read Dan. 10:5-8, and what Ellen G. White wrote about that vision in RΗ, Feb. 8, 1881. Read Eze. 9, as she counsels in 3T, p. 267. Note how Eze. 9 is woven into the testimony
"The Seal of God, in 5T, p. 211. You, like a host of others, are a
present-day fulfillment of Isa. 6:9-10 and Man. 13:14-15. 1 would recommend a
heartfelt prayer that, "the eyes of your understanding being
enlightened" by the Holy Spirit; you may hear and understand, see and
perceive. I never cease to utter that prayer for myself, because of our Lord's
own warning in Matt. 24:24. There is also this grave warning from the
Spirit of Prophecy:
I have been shown that Satan has not been stupid and careless these many years, since his fall, but has been learning. He has grown more artful. His plans are laid deeper, and
are more covered with a religious garment to hide their deformity. The power of Satan now to tempt
and deceive is ten-fold greater than it was in the days of the apostles. His power has increased, and it
will increase, until it is taken away. (2 SG, p,277;
emphasis
supplied.)
Anyone who is dismissive of Ellen G. White's own repeated counsel setting forth the primacy of
the Bible, and persists in
rejecting the clear statements of the Bible when there is conflict with the
Writings is in great peril! Persistence in trying to reconcile conflicts,
or in misusing the Writings as the ultimate expositor of the Bible leads to
hopeless confusion. That confusion is compounded by ignoring
the counsel, "Regarding the testimonies, nothing is ignored; nothing is
cast aside; but time and place must
be considered" (1SM, p. 57.) A classic example is her warnings of
the 1880s. The following two are dated 1881:
I would, at this time, sound the note of warning to those
who shall assemble at our camp meeting. The end of all things is at hand. (5T. 16.)
Brethren and sisters, I have been shown that we are standing upon the threshold of the eternal world. (5T. 18)
These statements would be appropriate for the present
time; but nobody uses them in that context. Why? Because it
would defy logic to do so. In context these statements clearly applied
to that specific time. I assure you
that it equally defies logic to expect
a great influx of genuine conversions,
now or in the future, into a Church that, as predicted by Ellen G. White, is sinking deeper and deeper into
apostasy. Yet, that is precisely how Great Controversy is applied
today, even by those who abhor the apostasy, and I suspect that this is one reason
why your mind is closed to the reality that the prophecy of Luke 21:24 has been fulfilled and the work of
preaching the gospel as a witness to all nations is closed. In this context read Early Writings, pp. 271 (last paragraph)
& 272 (first paragraph,) for a description of the conditions under which
the Loud Cry message is proclaimed.
There are some vital elements of Present Truth that can be understood and accepted
only by choosing the Bible over the Writings. One such is the Sanctuary doctrine, involving the judgment and
the Final Atonement, studied in the light of Jesus' own statement in John 5:24:
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth
my word, and belίeveth
on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, end shall not come into condemnation; but is passed
from death unto life. (K)V)
Most assuredly, I saγ to you, he who hears My word and believes
in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but
has passed from death into life. (NKJV)
Verily,
verily, I saγ
to you — He who is hearing my word
and
is believing Him who sent me, hath life age-during, and to
judgment he doth not come, but
hath passed out of the death to the life. (Young's Literal Translation, emphasis
supplied)
The following is taken completely from Patriarchs and Prophets. Note the errors in what was written by Mrs. White, and
the correction made by subsequent
editors. Was the Holy Spirit responsible for the errors? Absolutely not!
Is it a repudiation of the spiritual
gift bestowed on her to recognize the error? Very definitely not! This quotation, with a couple of
comments by me, closes my message, leaving you to work out the rest for yourself.
The most important part of the daily
ministration was the service performed in behalf of individuals. The repentant sinner brought his offering to the door of the
tabernacle, and, placing his hand upon the victim's
head, confessed his sins, thus in figure transferring
them from himself to the innocent sacrifice. By his own
hand the animal was then slain, and the blood was carried by the priest into the
holy place and sprinkled before the
veil, behind which was the ark containing the law that
the sinner had transgressed. By this ceremony the sin was, through the blood, transferred in figure to
the sanctuary. In
some cases the blood was not taken into the
holy place; [SEE APPENDIX, NOTE 6.] but the flesh was then to
be eaten by the priest, as Moses directed the sons of Aaron, saying, "God hath given it you
to bear the iniquity of the congregation."
Leviticus 10:17. Both ceremonies alike symbolized the transfer
of the sin from the penitent to the sanctuary. (PP,
pp. 354-355,
emphasis supplied)
NOTE 6. PAGE 354. WHEN A SIN OFFERING WAS PRESENTED
FOR A PRIEST [S/B "ΤΗΕ PRIEST THAT IS ANOINTED"
(HIGH PRIEST)] OR FOR THE WHOLE CONGREGATION, THE BLOOD WAS CARRIED INTO THΕ HOLY PLACE AND SPRINKLED BEFORE THE VEIL AND PLACED UPON THE HORNS OF THE GOLDEN
ALTAR. THE FAT WAS CONSUMED UPON THE ALTAR
OF BURNT OFFERING IN THE COURT, BUT THE BODY OF THE VICTIM WAS BURNED WITHOUT THE CAMP. SEE LEVITICUS 4:1-21. (ΡΡ, p. 761)
WHEN, HOWEVER, THE OFFERING WAS FOR A RULER OR FOR ONE OF THE PEOPLE, THE BLOOD WAS NOT TAKEN INTO THE HOLY PLACE, BUT THE FLESH WAS TO BE EATΕΝ
BY THE PRIEST. AS THE LORD DIRECTED
MOSES: "THE PRIEST THAΤ
OFFERETH IT FOR SIN SHALL EAT IT: IN A HOLY PLACE SHALL IT BE EAΤEΝ,
IN THE COURT OF THE TENT OF MEETING."
LEVITICUS 6:26, R.V. SEE ALSO LEVITICUS 4:22-35. (PP, p. 761, emphasis supplied.)
> > Hello webmaster,
> > I just wondered if you have had a chance to
write a fairly detailed reply?
> > Perhaps my email box was full.
> > Praying you have a
peaceful walk with our Saviour - Jesus Christ – today:
> > Daniel Winters
> > www.earlysda.com
---- Original Message ---‑
> > From: <webmaster@adventistlaymen.com>
> >To:
“Daniel Winters” tenkoku@hotmail.com
> > Sent: Saturday, February 20, 2004 11:47 ΑΜ
> > Subject: Re:
regarding William Grotheer and the Spirit of Prophecy
> Hello
Daniel Winters:
>
> First of all I have only just received your message. Α
switch of web hosting
> service resulted in a problem
accessing web mail.
> Next, I don't know what you could
possibly mean by your question. I sent
> you a detailed
reply a long time ago. The e-mail message was not returned.
>
> Do you want me to send you
a duplicate? I believe that I have a copy in
my
> computer files.
>
> Best
wishes,
>
> Web
master
---- Original
Message --‑
From: "Daniel Winters" <tenkoku@hotmail.com>
To: <webmaster@adventistlaymen.com>
Sent: Saturday,
February 21, 2004 12:55 ΑΜ
Subject: Re: regardίng William Grotheer and the Spίrίt
of Prophecy
Hello,
I'm sorry about whatever mixup there was, but i have never received anything
from adventistlaymen.com except a very short message saying that you were
going to reply in detail in the future.
I'm sorry if my email box was full or whatever, it should handle up to
around 300KB. If you could possibly send it
again, it would be appreciated
very much.
Sincerely,
Daniel Winters
> >
From: <webmaster@adventistlaymen.com>
To: “Daniel Winters”
tenkoku@hotmail.com
Sent: Saturday, February 21, 2004 10:43 ΑΜ
Subject:
Re: regarding
William Grotheer and the Spirit of Prophecy
Hello:
I will resend the text just as
soon as I am finίshed dealing with a serίous websίte
problem.
Brace yourself, because I do
not handle thίs issue gently. However, what I
have written needs to be communicated to you for
your own sake.
Sίncerely,
Webmaster
From: <webmaster@adventistlaymen.com>
To: “Daniel
Winters” tenkoku@hotmail.com
Sent: Saturday, February 21, 2004 5:22 PM
Subject:
Re-sent e-mail
Hello Daniel Winters:
The text of the December
e-mail message has been sent. Let me know again if you do not receive it.
Very sincerely,
Webmaster
From: webmaster@adventistlaymen.com
Το: <Daniel Winters
<tenkoku1@hotmail.com> Priority: Normal
Sent: March 26, 2004 11:13 a.m.
Subject: regarding
William
Grotheer and the
Spirit of Prophecy
Dear
Daniel Winters:
I
have not heard from you that you did not receive the following re-sent e-mail;
however, what I have just noticed suggests that I may simply have sent it to
myself. To be quite sure that you have the opportunity of reading it, I
am now forwarding it to you.
Sincerely,
Webmaster
(See Text of December 13, 2003, e-mail above, following the Daniels-Grotheer
correspondence)
----- Original Message -----
From: Daniel Winters
To: webmaster@adventistlaymen.com
Sent: Thursday, April 01, 2004 9:05 PM
Subject: Re: Re: regarding William Grotheer and the Spirit of
Prophecy
Hello
webmaster,
Yes,
the contents of this email were received on February 21. I sent the
following reply on February 22:
--------------------
Thank
you for your detailed reply webmaster,
I'm
sorry to see you also following the hellish torch of false prophecy, and of
setting yourself superior to the inspiration of the Holy Ghost as given to
Bible writers and Ellen White. That is surely one sign of the last days.
May
you and Mr. Grotheer both repent and be converted,
Daniel
Winters
----- Original Message -----
From: grotheer@adventistlaymen.com
(webmaster@adventistlaymen.com)
To: Daniel Winters
Sent: Sunday, April 04, 2004 10:35 AM
Subject: The
zeal of Daniel Winters that is not according to knowledge
To Daniel Winters:
I realized after I sent my last e-mail message
what I had done. After sending the
e-mail dated February 21, I then moved the sent message to my inbox in case of
the need for further action. I had
forgotten how it got there.
I take your claim to have replied on February 22,
with a grain of salt, as also your claim that you did not receive my original
e-mail sent on December
13, 2003. E-mails do not
just disappear into a void. They are
returned if not deliverable; as that of December 13 would have been if your
mailbox was full. You know the truth of
the matter. If, as I suspect, you are
playing silly games with our e-mail exchanges, it is grossly unbecoming when
dealing with matters of grave significance.
Now, as to my following the hellish torch of
false prophecy, and setting [myself] superior to the inspiration of the Holy
Ghost as given to Bible writers and Ellen White, who set you up to be a reliable judge of these things? You have revealed enough about the way your
mind works to enable me to state with confidence that you are ill-equipped to
make judgments on matters of Bible exposition.
If I were in your position I would tread very softly indeed. At the
beginning of the history of the Christian Church, the learned Doctor Gamaliel counseled the Sanhedrin as follows:
And now I say unto you, Refrain
from these men, and let them alone: for if this counsel or this work be of men, it will come to nought: But if it be of God, ye cannot overthrow it;
lest haply ye be found even to fight against God. (Acts 5:38-39)
Furthermore, if you are wrong, as I know you are, you are on very
dangerous ground, because the Holy Spirit through the prophet Isaiah said:
Woe unto them that call evil good,
and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put
bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!
Woe unto them that are wise in their own eyes, and prudent in their own
sight! (Isa. 5:20-21)
Oh! But
you say, Elder Grotheer attacks other Seventh-day
Adventists. He doesn’t! He attacks false doctrines, and he backs up
every attack with reasoned proof from the Bible, and where necessary from the
Writings of Sister White. Now you say,
“How dare Webmaster judge me as wrong, when he warns me against judging him
wrong!” The answer is that you are
judged by the Bible, of which as I stated in my e-mail of December 13, you
clearly are abysmally ignorant; and there I showed you proof from the Bible. Again the Holy Spirit spoke through the
prophet Isaiah:
Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the
breasts. For precept must be upon
precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little,
and there a little: (Isa. 28:9-10)
You have shown no evidence of studying like that,
but rather the contrary. The fact is
that a believer who studies as counseled by the Bible,
can be sure of standing on solid ground.
The Bible student who perseveres in searching
diligently for sound doctrine, will progressively settle into the Truth, to
borrow from an expression in the Writings.
Then the student is equipped to challenge false doctrines with reasoned proof from the Bible, and not as private opinion which cannot be
verified from the Scriptures. Instead of being so sure of yourself, Mr.
Winters, you need to pray earnestly that the Spirit of Truth will lead you into
all Truth. Beginning with a plea to the
Holy Spirit for guidance, you then need to study the Bible diligently, as you
have evidently not yet done, not eisegetically reading into the Scriptures what you
already believe they must be saying,
but exegetically seeking to understand what the Scriptures actually are
saying. The following statement from the
Writings is on the About Us page of adventistlaymen.com:
How shall we search the
Scriptures? Shall
we drive our stakes of doctrine one after another, and then try to make all
Scripture meet our established opinions, or shall we take our ideas and views
to the Scriptures, and measure our theories on every side by the Scriptures of
truth? Many who read and even teach the Bible,
do not comprehend the precious truth they are teaching or studying. Men
entertain errors, when the truth is clearly marked out, and if they would but
bring their doctrines to the word of God, and not read the word of God in the
light of their doctrines, to prove their ideas right, they would not walk in
darkness and blindness, or cherish error. Many give the words of Scripture a
meaning that suits their own opinions, and they mislead themselves and deceive
others by their misinterpretations of God's word. (RH, July 26, 1892, emphasis added.)
Of course you would pick out the description of
the wrong way to study and pitchfork it at Elder Grotheer; but you need to note
that in all of his teachings he urges his readers and hearers to study for
themselves, and in effect to measure [his doctrinal positions] on every side by
the Scriptures of truth. He does not
pontificate, as do so many of the Seventh-day Adventist teachers with whom you
would have no quarrel, and whom you seem to emulate by your own
pontificating. You and others of your
ilk, the self-appointed Correctors of Heretic Grotheer, as I would call you,
who are persistently assailing the work of ordained Minister of the Gospel
Grotheer, do not really know what he
is teaching, because you either do not read, or you read without understanding. For this
reason, you should not go public with your criticisms. To those who have studied thoroughly enough
to arrive at understanding, what you write is foolishness; to those who rely on
your interpretations you are bearing false witness, and a heavy responsibility
rests on you for leading them astray.
You refuse to enter the portal of Present Truth, and block the entrance
of others by reporting falsely on what Elder Grotheer teaches. The following words of Jesus Christ bear
witness against you:
But woe unto you, scribes and
Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of
heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them
that are entering to go in. Matt. 23:13
The foregoing serves a dual purpose, as a reply
to your e-mail message and an introduction to another important and related
matter. I caught up only last week with
a document on your website, written by you and titled Is
the Bible Inerrant? In the first
paragraph appears the following sentence:
Sadly, there are many voices today
in the church telling us that the Bible is "Imperfect Yet
Trustworthy" 1 (SDA sponsored web site), "discrepancies we find in
the Bible" 2 (Samuele Bacchiocchi),
and "James took the text...and misused it" 3 (William Grotheer) etc.
This is the only place where Elder Grotheer’s
name is mentioned; but it is enough to bear a false witness against his
unwavering commitment to the Bible and the Bible only as the pillar and ground
of all doctrine. You want to have it
both ways. You first and above all,
accuse Elder Grotheer of not believing in the SOP, because he insists on
establishing all doctrine from the Bible and the Bible alone. Then you turn right around and lump him
together with others whom you see as undermining the authority of the
Bible. Your reason for doing so is an
example of failure to understand what the Bible is saying to the reader. The question is whether James took a text
from the Old Testament and misused it on the
fundamental doctrine of the Christian Faith.
The answer is yes. All that you
have to do is to go to the relevant passages in the Book of Genesis. In Genesis 15 we read:
And he brought him forth abroad,
and said, Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars,
if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed
be. And
he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness. (Verses 5-6; emphasis supplied)
Now go to Chapter 22, verses 1-18. Nowhere there will you find the words
“counted to him for righteousness.” Paul
had correctly quoted from Gen. 15:5-6.
James inserted the phrase “counted to him for righteousness” into the
account of an incident which took place years later, and the phrase is just not
there. This is an indisputable
fact. This is pointed out by Elder
Grotheer solely in the context of the controversy that raged between James and
Paul over the doctrine of Righteousness by Faith. This is
history, placed in the Bible so that we may understand today that this
controversy is not new, but existed in the Christian Church from the very beginning.
Now, as between James and Paul, which one was
presenting the true gospel? Paul
provides the answer:
But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel
unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye
have received, let him be accursed. For
do I now persuade men, or God? or do I seek to please
men? for if I yet pleased men, I should not be the
servant of Christ. But I certify you, brethren, that the
gospel which was preached of me is not after man. For I neither received it of man, neither was
I taught it, but by the revelation of
Jesus Christ. (Gal. 1:8-12; emphasis
supplied)
If you read Gal. 2:12, you will get some further
insight into the controversy between James and Paul, and James’ harassment of
Paul, to which the harassment of Elder Grotheer by you and other misguided
individuals can be compared. As to what
he believes and has adhered to over the years without deviation, the following
is from the Joint Statements of Belief to which he subscribes, found in
Documents on the adventistlaymen.com website:
We believe that the Holy
Scriptures of the Old and New Testaments, were given by the inspiration of God,
and contain a full revelation of His will to man, and are the only infallible rule of faith and practice. (Emphasis supplied)
Now you say in your document, “And yet, despite
protests to the contrary, the Bible, at least that penned by the apostles, IS
dictated.” This statement is fatally
flawed in the sense that you make it. It
is obvious from your words and actions that you are blissfully unaware of
this. Can I help you? Perhaps not; but I will give it a try. Last week I searched for scholarly
dissertations that can help you to understand how the Bible has been passed on
from generation to generation down through the centuries. Following are two links to one website which
are helpful. The website is a veritable
treasure trove of knowledge. That is not
to say that a Seventh-day Adventist can accept all of the results of this research;
but the central point that I want to make is valid for every study that you can
find on the subject of the Old and New Testament texts. It is impossible to identify original
dictated text in the Bible. At the end
of the second article the following point is made:
[The] 19th century American Southern Presbyterian theologian
Robert L. Dabney. . . wrote,
This received text contains undoubtedly all the essential
facts and doctrines intended to be set down by the inspired writers; for if it
were corrected with the severest hand, by the light of the most divergent
various readings found in any ancient MS. or version, not a single doctrine of
Christianity, nor a single cardinal fact would be thereby expunged....If all
the debated readings were surrendered by us, no fact or doctrine of
Christianity would thereby be invalidated, and least of all would the doctrine
of Christ's proper divinity be deprived of adequate scriptural support. Hence
the interests of orthodoxy are entirely secure from and above the reach of all
movements of modern criticism of the text whether made in a correct or
incorrect method, and all such discussions in future are to the church of
subordinate importance.(
The diligent Seventh-day Adventist Bible student is
aware that certain of the Church’s basic doctrines are affected by some versions of the Bible. However, what Dabney
said was basically true. Here are the
links which you can type or copy into your web browser if they are not
activated within this e-mail:
[To the reader:
The links are excluded from this document, to avoid any appearance of
support for the theological content of the websites from which the relevant
articles were selected. The reader may
search the worldwide web independently to find some of the numerous
dissertations on the pure historical facts of how the Scriptures have been
preserved down through the centuries.
Good judgment needs to be exercised to verify the authenticity of the
historical facts.]
If you study this complex matter carefully, you
will be faced with this perplexing question.
In which version(s) of the Bible, and in which source manuscript(s), are
you going to find the dictated text?
There is no rational answer. What
is important is that God has preserved the substance
of His inspired Word. We need not go
astray.
That we may truly be seekers after the Truth,
Webmaster
